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SA300 Stall Speed @ 1320 Gross

 
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davet



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 588
Location: Indiana, Trafalgar

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: SA300 Stall Speed @ 1320 Gross Reply with quote

I've asked this question before, and produced a lot of discussion, but really no straight answers. Without debating the practicality of such a thing as trying to fly a Starduster Too within LSA limitations, can anyone tell me what their minimum stall speed is when loaded to exactly 1320 pounds?

My Too has been built light, and as I gear up to finish it, I occassionally have thoughts about making it a single seat and trying to keep it within LSA. I have an O320, ailerons on lower wings only (no slave struts), and would eliminate the front panel, windscreen, seat and controls. I'm guessing that minimum stall speed will be the hurdle that ultimately determines the feasibility. I have known many Starduster Too stall speeds to be listed as 56 or 58 mph at normal full gross weight of 1800+ pounds. It seems that eliminating a full 500 lbs from the gross weight ought to buy a 10% reduction in stall speed.

And of course I am aware that I will be the only one reading the airspeed indicator in a single seater. Just looking for some real information.
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Dave Tharp
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Tom Wilson



Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Fallbrook, California

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
Of course I won't be able to help you with your stall speed request. Empty my Too weighs 100 lbs more than your target weight. Furthermore I can't tell you what my stall speed is even in my present configuration as I've never seen the ASI during the landing and it doesn't really stall on the landing anyway.

So much for my help with that.

But I do find your idea of a single-seat Starduster built from a Too intriguing because I've thought the same many times myself. In my case LSA is not the goal, but rather a cross country biplane (don't ask why, I don't know why) with a workable, easily accessed storage compartment and a little more room in the back cockpit for me. I was even wondering what the lower-wing-only ailerons would be like on such a ship.

It's just a wild thought, but at least you're not alone in thinking of a Too Solo. I think it's a great platform for the bigger guys out there.
tw
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Starduster History



Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 736
Location: St. Helens, Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Light Sport LSA-300 Reply with quote

Light Sport LSA-300
Davet, I also posted this on the Biplane forum. Some time ago there was supposedly a Skybolt that met the definition of a light sport airplane it also was an O-320 single place lightly constructed airplane. It is my understanding that if the airplane meets the definition it can be flown as a light sport, that said this post might elicit quite a number of different opinions?

What is a Light-Sport Aircraft?

The FAA has defined light-sport aircraft as simple-to-operate, easy-to-fly aircraft that, since initial certification, has continued to meet the following performance definition:

In addition to fixed-wing airplanes, the definition of a light-sport aircraft also includes powered parachutes, weight-shift control aircraft (i.e., Trikes), balloons, airships, gliders and gyro planes.

A maximum takeoff weight of not more than 1,320 pounds.

A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE ) of not more than 120 knots/138 MPH.

And a stall speed of 45 knots or 51 mph.


Any aircraft that meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft as called out in FAR Part 1.1 is eligible to be operated by a sport pilot.


These aircraft can be certificated in any category, such as standard, experimental amateur-built, experimental exhibition, experimental light-sport aircraft (E-LSA), or special light-sport aircraft (S-LSA).


So if your LSA-300 meets the above criteria one should be able to fly it in that category, There is no approved list for amateur built aircraft that I an aware of, there is for certified aircraft such as cubs champs and some models of air coupes. I believe there is a list for factory built LSAs that are approved by the FAA as light sport aircraft!


So it sounds like to me that it could be done, the gross weight and stall speed would be the biggest challenge, but consider the last Skybolt built by Hale Wallace now owned by Steen Aero Lab that has an IO-540 and weighs what a four cylinder IO-360 weighs! Granted it has a lot of Kevlar and titanium parts and hardware an attention to detail, but if one has the wherewithal time money and ability it could be done!


It is my understanding that there is no certifying process to be met, so again if the airplane meets the above requirements you can fly it as a light sport! At least in my opinion! The other Dave
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bmcj



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 810
Location: California, Fresno

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to add one thing that is missing in Dave B's LSA definition. If an aircraft has ever been registered beyond the LSA limits, it can never be reined back to be LSA legal. Now, in Dave T's case, since this is the first time the plane will be registered, there is nothing (regulation-wise) that precludes it from being registered as LSA compliant, as long as it can meet the specs.
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Bruce



Last edited by bmcj on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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davet



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 588
Location: Indiana, Trafalgar

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to work towards a 950 pound empty weight, and see where it goes.
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Dan Benkert



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Rapid City, SD

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject: LSA SA300 Reply with quote

Back in the 70s Al Pietsch built and flew airshows with an SA300 that was right at 1000# empty. The airplane is on display at a museum at Minot, ND. I don't know any more details but maybe his sons Warren and Kent could shed more light on this. Could be worth a call to Pietsch flying service in Minot. Dan
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RDavidson



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 127
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: You can do it! Reply with quote

Dave T,

My setup is just like what you are building, but mine is heavier, around 1200# empty weight. The no kidding stall speed on mine is right around 58mph, but it is real mushy under 70mph.

I do have VGs on mine, but they were put on previous to me so I can't tell you if they make a difference.

Marl gave me some rough numbers before I flew mine, and they were very similar to what my plane does.

I think the decrease in empty weight will do it for you!


Good luck,
Ron
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WaltS



Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 112
Location: North Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had trouble with signing in.. finally got it.. Thanks.

One thing about LSA requirements that I haven't seen mentioned is the Top Speed In Lvl Flight. (Although I have yet to hear of any experimental being tested on this, or tested on stall speed) Any airplane that flys LSA is supposed to fly 138 MPH or less at full throtal, level flight, standard day. It is interesting that this, and stall speed, are the only qualification that can be altered after the airplane is regestered. Several of the European LSAs are sold here, in compliance to top speed, by simply putting on a lower pich prop to slow down top speed. So as I understand it, you can fly a standard category airplane, that fits all the requirements except top speed (under 138), just by "propping" it down to 138.

I don't know if a light, 0320 powered SDII will go over 138 MPH in lvl flight. If it does you can prop it down.

Good luck on the project. BTW: There is supposed to be a bill coming up in congress to allow LSA pilots to fly heavier, faster airplanes under LSA pilot weather conditions... Might solve the problem by legislation... go figure.
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bmcj



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 810
Location: California, Fresno

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the approaches I've heard being used to meet max level cruise speed is to define a max allowable SUSTAINED rpm for the engine (being EXPERIMENTAL, we have some say in that). The max sustained rpm is defined to meet the max speed, while leaving excess power for take-off and climb (METO, or "max except for take off). I am not vouching for the legality of this in the rules, but there are some that do this. Others use throttle governors or, has been suggested, re-pitched props.
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davet



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 588
Location: Indiana, Trafalgar

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm planning to use a 74x56 metal Sensenich, unless I need to go wood or composite for weight. The 56 inch pitch should take care of any excess speed. I had hoped it would help a bit in climb with only 160 ponies turning it.

Thanks for the replies!
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WaltS



Joined: 31 Dec 2007
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Location: North Alabama

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

davet, I'm flying a SA-900 with a 150 hp 0-320 usually flying at about 1000 lbs gross. I am flying with a 74-52 Culver wood prop. It takes off very well (short)..but climb is only about 1000 fpm. Top speed open throt LVL is about 118 mph. Even at that low pitch the engine won't pull but about 2,600 rpm in LVL flight open throt. The SA-900 does have a thick (and about the same length) wings so possibly that's the reason for the slow top speed. The SDII is much slicker through the air. Just thought this might help.. I'm no expert but the 56 inch pitch sounds like a lot from what I'm seeing on my (a bit different I admit) airplane. I'm sure there are some 0-320 SDII owners on the form here that can offer better advice on what prop to use.
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