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Grove undercarriage for Starduster too

 
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Twain66



Joined: 19 Jun 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Grove undercarriage for Starduster too Reply with quote

Does anybody have drawings showing the modifications required to fit a grove undercarriage to the starduster too.
The plans I have show modification on sheet 14A for a cantilever gear but are not specific to the Grove undercarriage.
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Starduster History



Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 736
Location: St. Helens, Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Grove Gear Reply with quote

Anthony I presume you are talking about sheet 14 A on the latest drawings form A/C Spruce, that incorporates the single piece aluminum landing gear?

If so this drawing leaves a lot to be desired and needs more clarification! My advise would be contact Grove directly http://www.groveaircraft.com/

As they have all of the correct drawings and installation information to install this gear on a tube fuselage like the Starduster Too


You have asked a question that has been the subject of discussion on a number of occasions both here and on the Biplane Form website, and I will give you what I think is the straight scoop and my opinion. These gear options are split between the single one piece aluminum Grove or the two piece cut down steel Cessna type gear. The two main reasons that builders choose the spring gear is that one, it makes the floor flatter and the rudder pedals easier to get on, and the second and probably the biggest one is that many people who have had unpleasant experiences
( An life altering one's ) while attempting to change the bungee cords, mostly because they do not have the correct tools knowledge or information to do it easily,... along with the potential destructive force in just one bungee cord is substantial and if not done properly and with the right tools one could get hurt or possibly damage the airplane!.

The problem with this gear on the SA-300 Starduster Too & the Skybolt is that in order to install it correctly requires good engineering so that the loads transmit up into the fuselage as you go from two points on each side of the lower longeron to one point on each side the result is that the loads are concentrated, and the installation must address this if not the lower longeron's will crack or break and the gear will bend aft along with the piece's of longeron it is attached to and will depart the airplane.

The SA-300 Starduster Too & the Skybolt must be done properly or you could be literally setting on the runway after a hard landing. If you ask Steen Aero Lab IE: Skybolt they do not recommend installing the spring one piece Grove type gear on this airplane because most are not installed correctly.

Starduster Corp at one time made and sold the single piece aluminum landing gear similar to the Grove for the SA-100, SA-101, SA-300, SA-700, and the SA-750 they were mostly used on the SA-750 Acroduster Too, but there were a number made for the SA-300 Starduster Too and for it was approximately 3" taller. There were also drawings at one time for both. I believe on the latest drawings for the Starduster Too sheet 14A it shows the spring gear installation. If you would like current information on this gear and how to install it, my suggestion would be to contact www.groveaircraft.com as they currently supply them.

The early SA-300s had gear geometry problems in that the gear was to far forward IE: the contact point of the wheels were directly under the firewall in level flight, this resulted in a very heavy tail, and if the was not straight, as you have found out, and that if both of the wheels are not going in the same direction as the rest of the airplane, and especially if one wheel was toed in and the other is not, couple this with a low time or inexperienced tail wheel pilot, one could be as some pilots have found out, be exploring parts of the airport up close that you have never seen before, and it is also the reason why they put fences around airports.

New pilots and owners that had experienced landings as described by many of the early pilot builders who were inclined to try anything to make the airplane better including moving the gear even farther forward!! , some actually got it right by placing it close to what is recommended today and that is contact point of the wheels 8" aft of the firewall / datum on the SA-300.

Either gear on either airplane in my opinion if installed properly should work fine with the correct set back and the correct height in three point and to the latest installation drawings that include the grove radius blocks. I prefer the original bungee gear and have flown this gear on my airplane for over 2500 hrs, but I am a traditionalist and the way you see my airplane is the way Lou Stolp intended it to be. Dave
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Mike Harris



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My ship is far from finished, let alone test flown, but this is how I did mine. All I can really say about it is ďit looks OK to me.Ē The gear is from Frank and Kevinís Gold Duster (It's still shiny Frank!). They took it off to put a lighter Grove gear on their plane. Grove said that they don't make mounting blocks for this hand-made-with-a-grinder gear but they have them for they gear the sell. Grove sent me the plans and materials for the mounting blocks and a friend machined them for me.

I got some hardware store bolts to mock up the bushing for the bolts (Pic 1)



Then I clamped the gear into place to get the spacing and alignment right and tacked the bushings into place. (Pic2)


Next, a file folder was re-purposed as a template for the plate that would transfer the loads to the tubes was laid out on 0.065 4130 and the part was drilled at the apexes and cut with a small jig saw and a fine tooth blade. (pics 3, 4 & 5)









The blank part was clamped to the longeron and I went to work with the rose bud and some handy mandrels to hot-form the part around the tubes. No pics of the hot-forming but the finished parts are shown in pic 6.



Then it was welded in place.







BTW, you'll note that the firewall on this fuselage has been moved forward 12". Thatís why it looks like the gear is WAY FAR back. It's not. I have extended the fuselage so I can have a baggage compartment up front for CG purposes. This extension of the fuselage will also allow me to use the old style short mount and still have CG where it needs to be. (Thanks Dan!)



Hope this is helpful!
Mike
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Don Adamson



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Location: Lonoke, AR

PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Entended Fuselage Reply with quote

Mike,
I like your idea of extending the fuselage and not the engine mount.
Gear installation looks similar to N3LD which did fail after running out of gas and landing in a corn field, I have the salvage.
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Twain66



Joined: 19 Jun 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Salvaged gear Reply with quote

Hi Mike do you still have the gear from N3LD.
If so is it still serviceable, tock Grove and interested in selling

Anthony
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Mike Harris



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don,

Thanks for the positive review on the firewall relocation. As the luggage area comes together, Iíll post some pics. Compared to building the airplane this is an easy modification. But Iím not real sure I could stop flying an airworthy ship to do it!

If you have pictures of the failed gear installation on N3LD could you post them or email them to me? Iím not real sure about designing landing gear for landing in cornfields but I can always learn from others.

BTW, the firewall material was a gift from my wife. Sheís a keeper, guys!

Anthony, Don has the gear from N3LD, not me. The gear I have came from N363J.

Mike
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Don Adamson



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Location: Lonoke, AR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gear from N3LD was bent as it did hit pretty hard but I do have another aluminum gear from another project. It is not as pretty as the Grove but a lot cheaper.
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Twain66



Joined: 19 Jun 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don,

I am in the United Kingdom, I am looking for a Grove gear because this is of known pedigree to the UK light aircraft association.
The gear currently fitted to G-KEEN being originally Cessna I think is not acceptable.
Can you send pictures and details of the other gear to my email address
anthony66.sharp@btinternet.com
It may be that I could get it approved over here.
Regards

Anthony Sharp
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Don Adamson



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Location: Lonoke, AR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anthony,
Yes, the Cessna gear is heavy but makes a nice ride while taxiing but you need that -540 to get it off the ground. It looks like the Cessna 170 gear in N76GS, which I have several hours in.

I will get you photos, the origin is unknown. It looks like the gear in the Starduster newsletter about fitting aluminum gear that didn't work very well. Ideas have changed and Grove seems to have it figured out with radius blocks.
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Twain66



Joined: 19 Jun 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don,

Thanks for the picture, but will stick with the plan to install a Grove gear.
You don't perhaps know of anybody selling one of those second hand.

Regards

Anthony Sharp
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